Author Topic: RBK Update - Joint Effort Kills  (Read 2566 times)

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Offline Rorce

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RBK Update - Joint Effort Kills
« on: December 18, 2015, 08:05:27 PM »
Since there seems to be an increase in guilds teaming up to defeat raids lately, we've had to make some additions to RBK to make joint efforts transparent.  I'm told that before we took over RBK, joint effort kills weren't even allowed to be submitted to RBK.  We aren't that strict, but we do want it to be shown when a kill was part of a joint effort of two or more guilds.

So now when you submit a kill (for content from The Broken Mirror and newer), you will be asked if your raid kill was a joint effort.  To qualify as a single guild kill (non joint effort) your raid must be composed of 91% or higher of players wearing your guilds tag.  If your raid has 10% or more players with another guilds tag, then your raid kill is considered a joint effort, and you must correctly submit the kill as a joint effort.

The submission process is still straightforward - there is just one extra step.  After you've clicked the "Submit This Kill" button you will be asked if your kill was a joint effort.  You simply select Yes or No, then press the Confirm button.

On the RBK Home Page, joint effort kills are marked with an * next to the kill date.

Please post here with any questions or concerns.  Thanks guys.

Offline Lianeb

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Re: RBK Update - Joint Effort Kills
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2015, 08:30:13 PM »
I applaud the changes.
Is there a way for a Joint effort kill to revert to a single guild kill with a new timestamp?

Offline Rorce

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Re: RBK Update - Joint Effort Kills
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2015, 09:37:18 PM »
I applaud the changes.
Is there a way for a Joint effort kill to revert to a single guild kill with a new timestamp?

You mean like have a new column for each joint raid, like have a PR column, FK column, and a PR + FK column?

If that's what you mean, I wouldn't plan on seeing that any time soon.  That would require a complete re-write of the RBK system, and that's not something I wish to spend a couple days on at the moment unfortunately.  Not automated, at least.  I could add PR + FK as a guild to the system, and they could submit the joint raids for that "guild".  This is something all parties would need to agree to before I set up, tho.

Offline Lianeb

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Re: RBK Update - Joint Effort Kills
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2015, 09:57:49 PM »
I was just thinking something along the lines of of a way to remove the * from the kill by submitting a second date for single guild kill.

I guess the way it works now is fine just makes the guilds choose either early date with * on the kill or later date without when they kill themselves.

Offline Rorce

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Re: RBK Update - Joint Effort Kills
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2015, 10:43:49 PM »
I was just thinking something along the lines of of a way to remove the * from the kill by submitting a second date for single guild kill.

I guess the way it works now is fine just makes the guilds choose either early date with * on the kill or later date without when they kill themselves.

Ok, I understand what you are saying.  Let me put some thought into this and see if I can figure out a way to do this without requiring too much code rewrite.

Offline Drakang

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Re: RBK Update - Joint Effort Kills
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2015, 09:51:57 PM »
10% or more?  Why not just say no more than 5 guests lol.  But good change.

Offline Roxxanna

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Re: RBK Update - Joint Effort Kills
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2016, 09:41:24 AM »
Why is this such a big deal? 100% of my raiding is done as a guest, and I often bring more than one guildie, isnt making us change our tag for an hour then back kind of petty? In my opinion, joint efforts should be applauded as they add an extra layer of difficulty. Furthermore, if the 10% consists of more than one guild, what happens then?

Offline linden105

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Re: RBK Update - Joint Effort Kills
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2016, 11:13:57 AM »
The difference is this Roxxanna.  Recruitment is often determined by highest ranking.  Obviously the top ranked guild is going to get the bulk of the best players and subsequently the majority of applicants.  I dont think anyone is asking you, or any guest to change tags for the duration of a raid.  In fact, just the opposite.  More transparency in the way guilds are completing progression is what the issue is here.  I can understand that. Joint efforts do not and should not support an individual guilds ranking or standing on ANY server as it does not serve, or support the integrity of the guild and does a disservice to prospective applicant's.  Each guild should stand on its own merit or  joint accomplishments should be noted.
If a guild is asking you to change tags for the duration of a raid, that is lacking of the transparency that this topic is addressing as well and needs to stop completely or be noted. At least, in my humble opinion. (which really doesnt mean ****, but there! I said it!)

« Last Edit: January 10, 2016, 11:47:36 AM by linden105 »

Offline Roxxanna

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Re: RBK Update - Joint Effort Kills
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2016, 06:45:18 PM »
Ok, I can understand that, although the whole concept of flocking to the #1 guild seems idiotic to me, what's the fun in that, a guilds rep means way more to me than rank. And no one has asked me to temp-tag, just seemed an obvious work-around.

I just don't want things like this making it more difficult for me.

 I wonder how many *'s would have to be added to various guilds if 100% transparency could happen (bots,3rd party,blatant exploits, etc.)

Offline Rorce

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Re: RBK Update - Joint Effort Kills
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2016, 05:29:36 PM »
Ok, I can understand that, although the whole concept of flocking to the #1 guild seems idiotic to me, what's the fun in that, a guilds rep means way more to me than rank. And no one has asked me to temp-tag, just seemed an obvious work-around.

I completely understand what you are saying here.  But as pointed out, this change is purely for transparency.  We are in no way trying to get guilds to change raiding in a way that works for them.  I actually applaud guilds for working together to beat raids that they couldn't otherwise beat on their own - it helps many players see content that they otherwise might not be able to.  And that's what it's all about.

There will always be those who wish to flock to the number 1 guild.  If they are already in the mindset that that's where they want to be, then what's the problem?  Rather than them using your guild as a stepping stone on their way, just let them go straight to where they want to be.

I just don't want things like this making it more difficult for me.

I'd like to understand what you mean by this.  How does this change make things more difficult for you?  If there's something I'm not seeing, I'm more than happy to discuss it and see if we can come to a mutual agreement, and make changes as needed.

Offline Roxxanna

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Re: RBK Update - Joint Effort Kills
« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2016, 09:25:06 AM »
More difficult for me:

I'm a career guest raider, a merc healer for raids in a way. Guilds that I may raid with will refrain from including me until they get their first win in if they are worried about rank.

I realize that's not your problem, and is a consequence of my career path, but that's what I mean by mire difficult for me.

Offline Rorce

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Re: RBK Update - Joint Effort Kills
« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2016, 10:34:35 AM »
Ok, I  can see what you are saying.  A couple of things come to mind in regard to that:

1.  Their rank isn't affected.  They are still awarded the rank in the order they beat the event.  The only difference is the asterisk, to show that a significant chunk of the raid force was not tagged with the guild claiming the win.

2. There's a 10% allowance.  As long as 90%+ of the raid force is tagged with the guild claiming the win, they are not required to submit as a joint effort, and thus do not get the asterisk.

It's my understanding that the whole reason guilds are working together on these events is because they are not able to complete the events alone.  I don't think the asterisk will change that in any way.

To be fair, I am no longer on the Rathe server, and don't keep up too much with the raid scene there.  If there is something I'm not aware of that should be discussed, please feel free to bring it up here.  If you're not comfortable discussing it here, I can be reached at rorce@eqresource.com or in game (;t cazic.rorcex).