Gamparse 1.5.1.3 DS vs. cleric RDS

[Jamz]

Cleric RDS showing up as a fake player is great. Any other DS, however, only showing up as "environmental" on the player DPS tab doesn't do the DS any justice. All it does is give the tank a very small boost in non-melee DPS. Can regular DS be made a fake player also please?

[Deloehne]

Looking over last night's raids, several players have "environmental" damage that were not tanking. Lumping all environmental damage under one fake player will also distort what is going on. My vote would be to leave it assigned to the player taking the hit.

[Jamz]

Everybody gets hit on a raid at one point or another but tanks take 99% of the hits. For most, "environmental" damage from a DS is insignificant non-melee damage. The tank alone will only do about 1K DPS non-melee with a DS but who cares? Everybody else's DS will give them maybe 5 DPS. If you're a DPS class already doing tens of millions of damage per raid event and want an extra 4000 damage added from your DS while taking AE ramp that's just silly. If regular DS is going to stay the same then make cleric RDS just as worthless. Why have 1 be a fake player and not the other? You can see DS damage now so why not parse DS damage? It would also show mob hitpoints a lot more accurately.

[Deloehne]

I think DS dps is more than you expect. Here are results from a random collection of trash mobs for which I, a ranger, am MT, MA and Puller. Healing is from cleric mercs who neglect to cast RDS. The DS DPS is a combination of worn, self buffs, a mage long term DS, DS recourse from a ranger DoT, and a Mage 5 min DS (Surge of Shadow). Max DS dmg per hit is around 5K. Average Environmental DPS is around 2.8K. Cleric RDS would, I expect, be additive.

/tell Deloehne Deloehne -vs- A scout (4), An infiltrator (2), A trapper (2), A salver (2), A snarer (2): -- DMG: 56692080 -- DPS: 50259 -- Scaled: 50259 -- Slash: 18339124 -- DirDmg: 13150193 -- Pierce: 9436461 -- Crush: 7913166 -- Hit: 4091630 -- Environmental: 3224987 -- Kick: 415567 -- DoT: 120952 -- % dmg as normal: 50.9% -- % dmg as critical: 49.1% -- Non-crit rate: 69.5% -- crit rate: 30.5% -- Attempts: 8535 -- Hits: 7676 -- Missed: 859 -- Accuracy: 89.9% -- Avg Hit: 7385 -- Max hit: 174251 -- D ...

I don't know about anyone else, but I am as much interested in parsing group events as I am raid events. Knowing how much DPS a DS actually does will influence my choice of spells to cast and the order in which they are cast. For all I know, it might influence raid buffing as well.

In short, I don't see benefit from consolidating DS damage, I see no harm in keeping it as is, and I expect that fixing it will cost someone time and resources.

[Jamz]

DS dps is a lot more than anyone expects and that's my whole point. That's why it deserves to be a fake player for all to see in an overall parse and not just 1 individual's environmental damage. Do the math. You were the tank and your DS parse did 5% of your total damage. If you weren't the tank it'd be 0% but my point is that it adds up over time. Do I want to break out the calculator and add up environmental dmg for 54 players on a raid just to show how significant DSs are? No I don't. That's why regular DS should be a fake player just like cleric RDS.

[Deloehne]

There are at least two players that are interested in the benefits of a counter based DS. One is the DS caster, who needs to understand if the buff is worth casting in terms of cast time and mana usage. To do that the caster needs to know if there is an increase or decrease from in raid or group dps from casting while the event is live. The second is the recipient, who needs to understand if getting this extra buff is worth giving up a buff slot. In both cases there is more information more readily accessible if the DS damage is reported per person.

[Jamz]

I don't think you realize that the caster gets 0 dmg and 0 dps added to their parse. Go ahead and cast a DS on a mob and don't get hit then maybe you'll understand. The ones who are dealing 99.9% of ALL environmental damage in all groups/raids are your tanks for an average at about 1K dps. This is a fact. Check it out on all your group and raid parses. There are also a lot more DS casters than you realize. Many classes can cast short/long term DSs that all stack (clickies, AAs, spells, songs, etc...) that land on the mob, go in song window or in buff window. Most of these are a 0.0 to 1.0 cast time and ALL of them have insignificant mana usage, so I don't see what your point on that is at all. Leaving it the way it is now, your mob's total hp will always and forever (and sadly) STILL be wrong in a parse overview/summary and you'll have NO idea how much damage DSs did overall. Non-parsers will NOT see the importance of DSs in a copy/paste DPS summary. Nor will they ever go add up all environmental damage each tank or player from an uploaded parse to truly see and understand how important DSs really are. Your RDS casters, however, will know exactly how much theirs did...and that's the problem.

[Deloehne]

I don't think you realize that the caster gets 0 dmg and 0 dps added to their parse.

Of course I know this. I have a mage bot that has been casting Surge on me for some time now. That's how I got those parse numbers shown above.

There are also a lot more DS casters than you realize. Many classes can cast short/long term DSs that all stack (clickies, AAs, spells, songs, etc...) that land on the mob, go in song window or in buff window. Most of these are a 0.0 to 1.0 cast time and ALL of them have insignificant mana usage, so I don't see what your point on that is at all.

First of all, having spoken with my warrior class leader, I know warriors remove buffs they consider of little use, damage shields among them.
Second, if the DS takes up a mob debuff slot (one of mine, for instance, does), its use is banned on our raids if we have three necros or more as we almost always do.
Third, our tanks don't get our bard (as in our only bard most of the time), so song window DS's from bards are of no interest.

The point is that it is not just the caster than has an interest in DS results. The tanks have an interest and can see the result right now and would not see the results under your suggestion.

Leaving it the way it is now, your mob's total hp will always and forever (and sadly) STILL be wrong in a parse overview/summary and you'll have NO idea how much damage DSs did overall. Non-parsers will NOT see the importance of DSs in a copy/paste DPS summary. Nor will they ever go add up all environmental damage each tank or player from an uploaded parse to truly see and understand how important DSs really are. Your RDS casters, however, will know exactly how much theirs did...and that's the problem.

Players are capable of looking at each of the tank's environmental damage in the Player DPS window and adding it up. Mages -or any other DS casting class - can look at the tanking window and see exactly how many times each of the tanks had an actual hit land. On a quick Vitio fight, for instance, our main tank recently got hit 115 times, and two other tanks got hit 43 and 50 times. A mage can work out that almost all 48 hits of Surge would have paid off from Surge cast prior to the engage call, and can also work out that typically a second cast might also pay off depending on who is tanking and for how long. Lumping in non tank environmental damage will obscure not enhance understanding, and will lessen the quality of the evidence needed to get tanks to leave the buff on and mages to cast it.

[Jamz]

Deloehne, quit trolling. Your arguments don't hold any water and you must really like drama. You don't state any facts in regards to the subject title of this post to bring DS and RDS to a comparable level in a parse. Do your bards ever sing war chorus for the entire raid? If not then any player or pet without a bard in raid is missing out on attack and damage modifiers but guess what...it also has a DS in it. That's just 1 example of many DSs that will stack it goes in the song window so quit talking about just mage DS... If a group or raid maximizes all DSs there would be a nice chunk of damage done but the way GamParse is setup right now you can never tell if DSs are being maximized. I can understand why SKs might click off a mage DS due to having so many self buffs but not a warrior or pally. Tell your warrior class lead to click off his 2 forms of lev, his 4 nimbuses and his illusion instead. In a 2 minute fight against vitio, like you mentioned, DSs will be pretty insignificant but how can one tell if that's true or not? I'd like to know but don't want to add up everybody's environmental damage. I can easily see RDS damage though. Why don't you post a decent argument why both DS and RDS should be kept track of completely differently.

[Riou]

I think both can be displayed in both spots fine without being confusing.

One gives you an easy to see all DS's combined (like say on overview) - this lets you see total DS damage for your guild on that event.

How it is now on only the player themself - This gives you how much of the DS total was from you taking hits.

[Beimeith]

RDS is displayed as a fake player because that is all that can be done. It is not tied to any single player. Regular DS IS tied to a single player, therefore it is attributed to that player. I'm not going to change that.